We have a duty to protect Zimbabwe

Water

Picture perfect.

Roy

Yes, it could be said we have a duty. The last time Britain had anything to do with the now Zimbabwe, after helping to form this beautiful productive Eden of Africa ... gave it away to the lowest bidder. Gave it away to the galloping Marxist army advancing through the continent. Oblivious of the ancient tribes that had their home there, and oblivious of the white settlers who had broken farms out of the land and formed a decent civilised society. All in the rush to have black majority rule no matter what. The one's who knew the most about the country were ignored. A typically rushed and botched abandonment by Britain to appease the madcap Marxist/Leninist onslaught financed by their Russian masters. Thousands of "I told you so" will be reverberating around the world from the one's who remember the disgraceful handing over of the country to the vultures of the communistic era. That is of the one's who are still alive to know and remember. Yes, something should be done, the author has more faith in the UN leadership than I have, and any push to come from the UK is like daydreaming.

Augustus

Indeed Water, a clear appraisal of a depressing situation in what once was a prosperous region of Africa.

However, hope still springs eternal, and perhaps the lack of international recognition of an obviously rigged win for Mugabe this time around will edge the democratic opposition a little closer to regime change in their favour as Mugabe's antlers are shed at long last.

patricia

Why Zimbabwe and not Palestine?

"Whether a person belongs to the minority or the majority, that person’s human rights and fundamental freedoms are sacred"

The right wing and you fellow bloggers on this site may laud the UN's intentions in protecting human rights in Zimbabwe, but then you curse the UN for its resolutions and views on Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

Zimbabwe has no right to hide behind national sovereignty in order to violate the human rights or fundamental freedoms of its peoples.

And neither has Israel.

Augustus

Patricia -
It is not correct to compare the position of Zimbabwe's mismanagement and abuse of single party power to that of Israel's in the way that you do.

The Palestinians' intentions have always been to wear down Israeli resistance, politically and socially, and to obtain international and Arab involvement and support for their position. Their aim has been to force Israel to make maximum concessions to Palestinian demands. Their portrayal of the violence and terrorism of the 'intifada' as a 'popular uprising' is to mask their carefully orchestrated campaigns with specific strategic and tactical goals. These Arab forces learned throughout the decades that direct, conventional warfare against Israel cannot succeed. So they have adapted themselves to that reality and have reconciled themselves to obtaining considerable success through limited, unconventional warfare coupled with unflinching use of viscious propaganda tactics to promote success through duiplomatic channels. This is fired up by 'world opinion' that is far more outraged by Israels's efforts to defend its civilian population than by Palestinian Arab terrorists and by world bodies, especially the UN, that provide one-sided forums to sanction and shepherd the militant Palestinian cause. A government and a cause which is, in effect, run by a lynch mob mentality.

The simplistic view is that when Israel opposes UN peace keepers it does so because it has something to hide. In fact Istael has opposed the pesence of UN observers because past experiences have shown that they are ineffective and usually biased against Israel, which they have been for decades and they cannot be trusted with matters that are vital to Israel's survival.

I'm not sure that this is the correct place for these comments, but it had to be said.

Cogito Ergosum

No, we absolutely do not have a so-called duty in these matters. Zimbabwe is an independent sovereign state and we are well rid of it.

If we intervene there because we think it morally right, then so may Al Qaeda, so may the ruling elements of Somalia, so may anybody.

The world does not agree on what is morally right, so morality is no basis for foreign policy. We will achieve more in the long run if we look after our traditional interests by traditional diplomatic means.

We have dumped Mr Blair; we must also dump his absurd interventionist foreign policies.

Bart

There is something rather comical about British protests about atrocities around the globe. Get real! You no longer have an empire. You barely have a military. You can't even get up the gumption to prevent terrorism in your own country, defining opposition to terror as Islamophobia, and any attempt to fight terror as a violation of terrorists' civil rights. What do you do if Mugabe kills his opponents and then eats them? Write him a really nasty letter? Don't invite him to tea and crumpets with Mrs. Windsor? You are a broken-down, decadent dying carcass of a once-great nation. Get over yourselves!

Water

You may think and therefore be (of one state or another), but it’s not an agreeable state that you’re in, entirely. You stated “We will achieve more in the long run if we look after our traditional interests by traditional diplomatic means” though this leaves you open to a contradiction, for after all one of our ‘traditional interests’ could be construed as ‘diplomatic’ conduct along moral lines.

Water

So Bart where do you come from?

Bob Gardner

We no longer have enough squaddies to fight and or peacekeep in Afghanistan,Iraq. Bosnia, Northern Ireland and all the other places you liberal shits would like us to go and die for nothing. I am an ex-squaddie and I can tell you two things:
1. You will not put this letter on your website
2. Don't think that our low pay and poor conditions and the constant long separations from wives and kids, coupled with the news that we get paid less than traffic wardens is passing over our heads.

Herbert Thornton

If we lived in a generally civilised world, the duty to protect Zimbabwe might be more universally recognised, but we do not live in a generally civilised world. Crusades of the sort necessary to discharge duties of this sort are seldom feasible, and even when embarked on are of doubtful efficacy.

Peter Oborne's piece is illustrated by cartoon showing a statue of Robert Mugabe being toppled. No doubt if it were to actually happen it would be greeted with the same enthusiasm as the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad. But what then?

With the example of the genocide in Sudan, we ought to be considering our duties to ourselves. With the possibility of similar genocide being eventually organised in our own countries, we should be giving a great deal more attention to our duty to protect the lives of our own grandchildren.

Lance Corporal

When Peter says 'we' of course he means 'someone', 'not me' and 'I won't be leading the charge'. He means some poor jokers who get paid less than traffic wardens and rotate between the unpleasant places of the world being shot at for no apparent reason. The army. That's who 'we' is. If Peter had to go himself, he would be silent on this topic. If his wife and kids had to sweat out the stress in sub-standard accomodation while relatives of the Taliban get good council housing he might think again.
Sorry! did not mean to raise the ugly head of reality.
Just carry on chaps, with your fantasizing.

David Short

This article long (far too long) on summing up the situation in Zimbabwe without telling us anything we didn't know, but it's short on what it promises in its headline: 'We have a duty to protet Zimbabwe' and its summary: 'We should act now...'.

Who's 'we', what action, and why do we have a duty (just because Kofi Annan, whose incompetence and inaction as head of UN peacekeeping was instrumental in the enormity of Rwanda, said so)?

Oborne merely calls on the UN to act, as if he is blissfully ignorant on the constraints under which the UN peacekeepers can work.

Also, Angola is not a 'one party state'. True, there have not been elections for almost 15 years, but more than half that time the country was at civil war, a war that hotted up when Unita lost the election.

There is still a working legal Unita political party in Angola.

If 'we' means Britain, then any intervention by the British would play right into Mugabe's hands, as he constantly accused the MDC of being a pawn of the UK.

Frankly, I expect better of The Spectator.

If it's going to lead on an African country, get an expert African journalist such as Richard Dowden, to do it.

Michael A

British troops should get more money, though the last time I looked this was a right wing magazine. All things under consideration I see the little people have been released again.

Water

I'm not moved I'd say we do have a duty to help the people over in Zimbabwe (this isn’t to say we don’t have a duty to ourselves). To for fill this duty wouldn't require us to send over hundreds of troops. Just one well trained member of the forces to put a bullet in his head would suffice.

paul in australia

We should do absolutely nothing.I think some of you bleeding hearts need to be reminded many white Rhodesians were murdered to enable the people to freely elect Mugabe in 1980. Did they really think they could kill the creators of civilisation in that land but still enjoy its benefits? Let the people of Zimbabwe enjoy their "liberation" they deserve it! We will probably be having similar conversations about South Africa in about ten years time.

Water

The white Rhodesians shouldn't have been killed and (it was a complicated situation as you can be understood to infer) I simply don't have the time to go into the intricacies regarding that. Though I will say Mugabe should be dealt with and shouldn't be allowed to go on.

Water

Also (further to my last message) a whole new generation of voters has sprung up since the 1980's, this new generation had nothing to do with prior actions.

Roy

Or a torpedo, Water, into the ship from China cruising around looking for a place to discharge its cargo of arms for Zimbabwe. According to this article it must have arrived. No doubt at the full expense of China. Herein lies this nauseating insidious realisation that we have a country about to hold and celebrate with the world the Olympic Games. At the same time peddling arms and ammunition to one of the most degenerate countries in the world, ruled over by this demented demagogue Mugabe. Wouldn't it have been appropriate to mount a huge protest against China? Yet only by public pressure can this take place! Unfortunately again, the public will know nothing of Britain's past association with Zimbabwe, the history will certainly not be told in detail in schools in Britain. Countries of the old British Commonwealth are as guilty of betraying the Southern Rhodesia of the time as was Britain. Harald Wilson of the time made sure they pulled the line. They were talked into the sickening sanctions whilst British warships patrolled the access by sea. Only when South Africa sabotaged the remaining life line and the USA stood firm by Britain did Rhodesia finally have to concede to Britain the position of hangman to push it finaly into the abyss of disintigration. After being so humiliated by the delinquency of such a small isolated nation Britain did her damnedest to see to it none of the old regime had any say in the countries future. So here we have the whole western democracies ganging up against a small nation having the audacity to stand firm in what it thought was its freedom at stake. Its freedom against the advancing wall of extreme totalitarianism. Still today the semi-Stalinists/Maoists are there evoking the torched earth policy put to a country to be converted. So we see the same thing taking place with Israel, the stampeding anti-western propaganda from a slightly different enemy. Wanting to take over a small but strong bastion of western civilisation.

Ken Westmoreland

The only reason why there is this indignation over Zimbabwe is because it once had a white minority. If it did not, we would no more care than we did about Sierra Leone, where the only settlers were freed slaves.

Given that millions of black Zimbabweans see no future in their country and are leaving in droves, why should we expect the far smaller number of white ones to return?

I am dismayed that Bob Gardner thinks that squaddies in Northern Ireland died there "for nothing", given that the last time I checked, it was still part of the United Kingdom. Weren't "liberal shits" involved in the 'Troops Out' movement?

The idea that East Timor is an example of liberal interventionism is tosh - if Indonesia had not changed government and decided to hold a referendum on independence, East Timor would still be ruled from Jakarta.

Ken Westmoreland

The only reason why there is this indignation over Zimbabwe is because it once had a white minority. If it did not, we would no more care than we did about Sierra Leone, where the only settlers were freed slaves.

Given that millions of black Zimbabweans see no future in their country and are leaving in droves, why should we expect the far smaller number of white ones to return?

I am dismayed that Bob Gardner thinks that squaddies in Northern Ireland died there "for nothing", given that the last time I checked, it was still part of the United Kingdom. Weren't "liberal shits" involved in the 'Troops Out' movement?

The idea that East Timor was comparable to Kosovo is tosh - if Indonesia had not changed government and decided to hold a referendum on independence, East Timor would still be ruled from Jakarta.

Phillip Botha

'Robert Mugabe is murdering, starving and brutalising his people...'
Mugabe started his reign of terror shortly after being installed by Britain. Then he killed 20,000 or so and not a whisper of complaint from his benefactors. Now many years later the media, his previous supporters, are surprised and mildly upset that he continues his reign of terror and 'demand' that 'someone' does 'something' to stop him. Never a more wimpish cry from the left who previously supported him completely. When he attacked white farmers continuing with his killing no real complaint was heard and now that the remnants of the population barely have the strength to live British commentators call for 'action' - they are despicable!

Sonya Porter

We no longer have any responsibility for Zimbabwe. They wanted independence and we gave it to them. They don't like it...? Tough. They are now the responsibility of the African Union. Let them sort it out.
In any case, what does Peter Osborne suggest we use as troops -- all we've got left after Iraq and Afghanistan is two men and a dog.

Water

Superpowers both eastern and western have their insidious inclinations this is indisputable, though I’m glad you feel Mugabe is “demented”. Also the inhabitants of Zimbabwe (I reiterate this as my initial post did not show) cannot be left to deal with Mugabe on the grounds of certain people’s actions in the 1980s. For Zimbabwe is now subject to the offspring of the 1980’s Zimbabweans, which are now adults, this new generation, without a doubt, would not have played any part in the actions at that time for they would just have been born.

D Short

Rubbish, Water. the so-called 'vets' that are carrying out the killings now were not born during the struggle.

Incidentally, there was a white British woman involved in one 'liberation' of a farm recently. Her name is Anne Pout.

Val

I am not surprised that the UN does nothing. They must be sick and tired of the black hole that Africa has become. Millions of Dollars of Aid and nothing on the ground changes. The mad dictators and their cronies flourish. Once a breadbasket even during sanctions, Zimbabwe is now a basket case. Britain sent out its people to colonise including children (remember the Fairbridge Scheme) who made the then Rhodesia their home and then Britain turned her back on them to pander to the bleeding hearts brigade

Water

What happened in the past happened, it’s not unfeasible to help now.

Water

D Short it is by no means rubbish, the veterans may not have been born then, maybe before hand. But this does not go to say that a new generation has not sprung up since then (who are not affiliated with the vets), I am afraid you are talking rubbish.

Moeketsi Mphaki

The writer is obviously anti-Mugabe and anti Zimbabwe. He deliberately omits mentioning the effects sanctions have on Zim and blames everything on President Mugabe. And true to his agenda, he potrays the MDC as angels when there is ample proof that it is a violent party. We will not be deceived by the likes of him. Nice try, Peter.

Roger Clague

Peter Oborne thinks that Britain should act to prevent ethnic cleansing in Zimbabwe. However he admits that Mugabe is 'exclusively targeting the opposition'.

Mugabe is leading a new political movement. No one disputes that he got a large share of the votes. Even if we dislike if methods.
This movement is based on control of the best land in the country, previously occupied by the white settlers.

Intervention in Zimbabwe based on ignorance of the real politics will make the situation worse. As has happened in Iraq and Afganistan.

patricia

Nice One Augustus.

One law for dictators in Zimbabwe, and another for those who commit war crimes against the Palestinians.

And your selective contempt for the UN is surreal.

Your disregard for the human rights of Palestinians, as against those of Zimbabweanm smacks of a racism that cannot be underestimated.

Water

Well I'm definatley anti-Mugabe (considering what he has done) though by no means anti-Zimbabwe. He may have a large share of votes, how they have been obtained is a thing to be disputed for sure.

Vasco de Sousa

East Timor was never part of Indonesia. Like Korea, China and Ethiopia, it suffered a temporary occupation by a fascist dictatorship.

Only greedy interventionists and a few extemists ever recognized Indonesia's false claim to East Timor.

And as another comment pointed out, Indonesia finally removed its pretensions of its own accord. (Indonesia also finally stopped threatening Malaysia.)

Half the world is a mess, not just Burma and Zimbabwe.

Michael A

Vasco de Sousa, half the world maybe a mess, this doesn't mean Mugabe should be left to his own devices.

michael

I agree with Patricia.

We most certainly have a duty to march in to Zimbabwe and restore law and order, given our colonial past. And we have exactly the same duty to do the same in Palestine, given our shameful history in that sorry region.

Mike

Cogito ergosum’s first year university level remarks would suggest that his knowledge of the history of Rhodesia / Zimbabwe is as dismal as his understanding of the need for morality in civilization.

The reason that we have this mess is that for half a century Britain has found it inconvenient to stick to its obligations.

At the break up of Federation in the 60’s Rhodesia objected to its agreements with Britain being dumped and the country being handed over to the same ilk of rulers that were busy wrecking the rest of Africa. When as a result it declared UDI, Wilson’s government had no compunction in starting the process that cost thousands of lives and squeezed the life out of Rhodesia. And if that was not enough it was happy to recognize the farcical “elections” in 1980, won with exactly the same tactics that Mugabe is using in 2008. That to me is sufficient evidence to suggest that there are moral obligations.

But cogito ergosum, and those with the extraordinary views of Moeketsi Mphaki, will get their way. The UN will do nothing except jabber at its standard rate of $1 000 / word / head / day. Mbeki and pals will do nothing, as they would love to be doing exactly what Mugabe is doing. Mugabe will eventually go. Whites will not return. The Zim agricultural economy will not be restored until, at best, late century. There will thus be no tax base to provide the life people want. Another African basket case here we come, ripe for take over quite soon by the Chinese.

And to think what it could have been, for both black and white, if Zanu had had morality.

And to Bob Gardner etc, service in Afghanistan is like a well paid holiday compared to what life was like in the RLI, but where soldiers believed, and still do, in the rightness of their cause. History would suggest that they were correct, not you.

Westerner

Patricia, its the Palestinians that commit most of the war crimes ever since they exclusively attacked Israeli and other civilians, And a woman such as you would not last long an a society such as theirs, but obviously you are pretty blind to that among other things. People of your ilk make the same errors with the Palestinians as was made with support of Zanu PF and other "liberation movements"

Bart

water,
For your information, I'm from America, the only country in the world doing anything that can remotely be called 'humanitarian warfare' and a nation that has lost over 4000 lives in the process, as well as hundreds of billions of dollars of treasure. The only thing America has received for freeing the Muslim savages from Saddam's yoke is the vociferous disapproval of the world's chattering classes, led of course by those of Perfidious Albion. Because Britain has become so enfeebled over the last century, all of its efforts to defend human liberty amount to little more than the placement of a 'Free Tibet' sticker on one's bumper. One other thing is certain however. Neither water nor Peter Oborne will put their lives at risk to depose Mugabe. That will be the task of some other poor sap.

Bart

Few things are funnier that Patricia complaining about other people's selective concerns. She seems bent out of shape only about the perceived crimes of Jews. I thought this went out of style around 1945, but I guess for many Europeans, their opinions of Jews remain unchanged from the time of Christopher Marlowe or Edward Longshanks.

Water

Bit slow in our response weren't we Bart, I'll be honest with you I have a few American friends none of them as backwards as you. I guess its Americans like you that give the rest a bad name.

Also I think you'll find the British have been doing a fair bit over in Afghanistan, so we’re entitled to say whatever we like, within the context given. As for being a great nation, it still is, though I admit there is room for expansion. This said have you looked at America recently, we’re more then aware of US shortcomings over here so much so that I have no need to list them.

Water

Further to my last point its bloody rigth I won't be putting my life at risk because that isn't my given vocation. Though I'm still entitled to my opinion and if its right its right.

Enkidu P

Protect Zimbabwe?

We have an even more pressing duty to protect the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa and elsewhere (including Palestine) from being murdered, starved and brutalised by evil foreigners who have no more business there than they would have in Zimbabwe, which is just another diversion from greater evils.

And, despite the bluster and Babylonian boloney, Israel has absolutely no right to Palestine. The adherents of christinanity had no more right to give Palestine to the Zionists than they would have had to give East Anglia to the Johovah's Witlesses.

But god gave it to them?

Yeah - right!

Michael A

I'm with Water just put a bullet in Mugabeas head, end of story, this isn't about anywhere other then Zim. Bumping of one man isn't beyond the strech of the imagination by any means. In all hounesty it could have been done at the food gathering a while back. In actuality we could have saved oursleves a bullet and just taken a knife to the despot, hows that for economics. None of our Soilders would have been at risk then and all these people could have stopped their moaning.

jon livesey

This is a naive article written by someone who has bought into one of the classic con games of the modern world.

Zimbabwe is not sui generis. It is not its own thing. Zimbabwe is a stalking horse for the rest of sub-saharan Africa. Every other despot or near-despot in the region, including Mkebe, has an interest in keeping Mugabe in power for two reasons.

The first is that then they look less horrific themselves by comparison. The second is that they can intimidate their own populations by pointing to Mugabe as a nightmare outcome in their own country unless they are obeyed.

But there is a secondary strategy which is hardly ever mentioned, which is the usefulness to Africa of Mugabe in keeping the West divided and off-balance in its approach to Africa.

When the UK and US threaten sanctions, the EU can be replied upon to offer luxury trips to Europe and shopping extravaganzas. Mugabe both keeps the West enmired in Africa, and ensures that the West's internal rivalries ensure that no coherent Western approach to Africa ever emerges.

Meanwhile, the "useful idiots" in Western Churches and Development Ministries helps to pull the wool over our eyes by misrepresenting a deliberate anti-Western strategy on the part of Africa as a "humanitarian" emergency.

We have lost the ability to distinguish humanitarian crises we can help, such as tsunamis, from created humanitarian crises that are really weapons directed against us, which include not only Zimbabwe, but also the "plight" of Palestinians.

We need to recognize that when near neighbours tolerate humanitarian crises, it is almost always because they find them useful.

Michael A

Has he brought into anything or has he just played stupid, personally I couldn't tell you what thoughts have run through his head. At the end of the day whether he has strings attached to his imaginary organs or not Mugabe needs to go, it’s a good place to start.

Harry O

So, what troops should we send to discharge our duty then? We we then doubtless find ourselves re-christened the re-colonialists of Africa and find a continent opposes us. Our first duty now must be to offer succour to our own kith and kin, those who political correctness in our own country presently refuses to acknowledge, the dispossessed white farmers who the racist Mugabe will murder for his own self interest.

Bart

Water,
Ignorant? You really don't want to compare graduate degrees, languages spoken, continents visited and income levels with me.

Britons have a pathology of over-rating their contributions to anything halfway decent. Your pathetic efforts in the last two World Wars and Korea area good examples. The US spends more than the rest of the world combined on defense and much of that is spent on idiotic and wrong-headed humanitarian efforts in places like Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan. Britain's efforts are at best those of a rump state, a corgi compared with a rhinoceros.

American GDP is over 14 trillion while British is less than 2 trillion. You are small potatoes.

And yes, you do have the right to demand that your nation send its young people to fight and die for Zimbabwean democracy, but the rest of us have the right to say that you are nothing but a pusillanimous, sanctimonious coward when you do so and then do not pay any price whatsoever for the effects of your choice.

It did take me a while to respond, because, unlike you, I actually work for a living and have better things to do with my life that troll around English websites.

Oscar Le Wilde

No Peter we don't. as disgusting as Mugabe and his henchmen are, we left Zimbabwe, and Palestine, as an independent country many years ago and have no remaining ties or duties there. Our sole remaining duty is only to our own people, to rescue and protect the persecuted white minority who we have left in the control of the murderous and racist Mugabe.

D Short

According to Water, it's OK for people to call themselves 'war veterans' if they were not involved in the war, and not even born when the war occurred.

In that case, I declare myself a war veteran of Waterloo, the Somme, and the Battle of the Bulge.

And for good measure, let's add the Falklands. I was around then and living a comfortable life in magazine publishing, not battling on a cold mountain. But what the hell.

I expect my service and campaign medals forthwith, and I have the support of Water in this matter.

D Short

Mphaki, if you don't know that the only sanctions on Zim that exist are against Mugabe and his henchman and their families, freezing the money they have stolen from the Zim people in foreign bank accounts, and preventing them travelling abroad to spend it on wicked Western luxury goods, then your remark is simply ignorant.

If you did know, then it is simply wicked.

Water

Bart it’s good to see you’re remaining true to the connotations that your name holds.
You stated: “Ignorant? You really don't want to compare graduate degrees, languages spoken, continents visited and income levels with me.”
Well no because this is a public form, also I couldn’t care less what you have done in the past its what you’re saying now that makes me pass you off as ignorant.
You stated: “Britons have a pathology of over-rating their contributions to anything halfway decent. Your pathetic efforts in the last two World Wars and Korea area good examples.”
Umm not at all because a lot of the time they are glistening examples of military exactitude, though to be honest the residual respect I had for you has now vanished and to be honest (and I don’t speak for all Britons) I certainly won’t lower myself to the level where I have to justify myself to a backwards ignoramus such as yourself.
You stated: “The US spends more than the rest of the world combined on defence and much of that is spent on idiotic and wrong-headed humanitarian efforts.”
Well I wash my hands of all responsibility regarding that comment for you stated it. Like a Rhinoceros you seemed to have tripped and impaled yourself on your own horn.
You stated: “American GDP is over 14 trillion while British is less than 2 trillion.”
Yes but have you looked at the size difference don’t think it doesn’t play a role.
You stated: “And yes, you do have the right to demand that your nation send its young people to fight and die for Zimbabwean democracy”
Damn right I have the right to speak up when I think there is some wrong that needs to be righted, but with regards to those people being young people its totally arbitrary to the point and nobody said I wanted them to die by any means in fact I wish all soldiers a very long life (you certainly haven’t learned to forgo making assumptions despite all your qualifications have you).
You stated: “but the rest of us have the right to say that you are nothing but a pusillanimous, sanctimonious coward when you do so and then do not pay any price whatsoever for the effects of your choice.””
Yes you have the right but you’re on your own and I’d say you’re a sanctimonious fool, and it’s bloody right that I don’t have to pay any price because as I said before that’s not the vocation at hand so I’m completely justified.
You stated: “It did take me a while to respond, because, unlike you, I actually work for a living and have better things to do with my life that troll around English websites.”
Umm how did you make the conclusion that I don’t work my dearest troglodyte cyber fool, are you a bit slow? And if you have better things to do I advise you stick to them because you’re no good at this.

Water

D Short, assumptions seem to be catching on in this thread because you certainly seem to be making them. I didn’t say anything of the sort stroll up and look at what I did say you residual pond sludge.
You stated: “In that case, I declare myself a war veteran of Waterloo, the Somme, and the Battle of the Bulge.” In your case I wouldn’t be surprised as it seems to be unable to function properly.

Zack

Bart dude you make a lot of rudimentary errors.

Max Kaye

1) After the folly of handing over Rhodesia to Mugabe, we should hang our head in shame.

2) Any sanctions taken short of armed attack will be ineffective as they will hurt only innocent people, not Mugabe's kleptocracy.

3) Even if Britain wanted to take military action - it couldn't: We're over-stretched, under-manned and under-resourced.

Sorry - Alas, I have no constructive solutions. It looks like Mugabe will bring the whole country down with him when his downfall - eventually - comes.

Water

Max Kaye your third point makes sense, if we're over stretched we're over stretched. But I still find it hard to believe that we couldn't have him disposed of, though a sizeable military campaign may be out of the question.

Mark

For up to the minute news from the Zimbabwe election go to
www.friendsofzim.com
and sign up for their email updates

Water

Thanks Mark

Phil M

The spectacle of what is now happening is Zimbabwe is truly appalling and doubly or more depressing when one contemplates what that country could be if it were well governed. I cannot help feeling however that any direct military intervention would be both impractical and counter-productive. How about turning more of a spotlight then on those whom we can more directly influence, those in our midst in Britain and Europe who profit from and give succour to the current regime in Zimbabwe? Who exactly are these people to whom Peter Oborne gives somewhat passing mention in his article? Armed with appropriate information is there not more we could all do to make the lives of those within "our circle of influence" rather more uncomfortable than it is at present? Not so much moral foreign policy as plain morality: surely we can legitimately seek to influence those who doubtless will try and hide behind "legitimate commercial interest"?

D Short

I don't suppose it occurred to the Spectator that its site would need a Report button to have offensive posts and posters removed.

But now we have Water who has reverted to filthy insults because his unsteady comments have been thoroughly refuted.

I suggest a Report button should be installed now.

Especially for people who support the murderous thieves who constitute the Zimbabwean 'war veterans'.

I at least put my name up here.

Will Water have the courage to do the same, or does he have the kind of courage possessed by people who raid farms in Zim when they outnumber and outgun the residents and have no fear of prosecution?

Perhaps it's time for the Spectator to charge a subscription for online access.

Water

Your suggestions are good food for thought Phil M. But without a doubt it would be a great step to eliminate Mugabe for obvious reasons and by no means counter-productive.

Water

Courage D short, spare me your infantile remarks, anonymity is something synonymous with the word Spectator, if you can’t handle the heat step out of the kitchen. Also as I said stroll up because you were put in your place if you cannot correctly interpret the comment with regards to veterans. As for filthy that falls underneath infantile on your part again. Oh yes great to see Khan win!

Water

D short to cut a long story short I put you in your place if you don't like it too bad.

Zack

D short Water owned you dude get over it, grow up their called pseudonym's i.e. some of us wouldn't want to share our real names with the likes of you. I'm surprized Water even acknowledged you. As for the report button a true sign of failure on your part. Things get alot more personal then this on The Spectator site.

Michael A

D Short you nearly beat Bart to the sillyness award but not quite. Water how do you deal with these children?

bibliobus

If that's what you call courage Short then you epitomize the saying 'there is line between bravery [if looked upon as being on par with courage] and stupidity' (by the way you fall on the side of the latter).

D Short

bibliobus, I've been shot at and shelled in African countries, and I have witnessed the aftermath of one massacre of women and children in central Africa.

I know what the violence that the armchair warriors on this site encourage, with no risk to their own fat arses, looks like on the ground.

Call me what you like behind the safety of your pseudonym.

Let us have your real name, and what your credentials are to call me stupid.

Over to you.

bibliobus

D short this is what we call a debate (of sorts) on a public domain; this isn't boys in the play ground comparing conkers. Given the quality of people’s opinions as regards you you're lucky to get a response.

You should also know I attend the gym quite regularly so am by no means fat (not that there is anything wrong with that). In case you haven't noticed a fair few people couldn't care for your opinion. This said I respect the fact that you have done service but you still act idiotically, so maybe you’re both brave and stupid.

Michael A

The 'sore loser' blog seems befitting for you D Short.

Water

Michael A rational people can see through the drama.

Zack

"let us have your name" you sound like Bart earlier, face it hardly anyone is going to give you their real name. No one cares if that’s what you call brave. To display your name in public, personally, it seems silly dude. Also kudos on the service (you’ll se from above the vast majority of use find service deeply honourable) but this isn't your domain face it you got owned.

Niallster

Zanu-PF are thugs. They are really in charge Mugabe lost all power after the last 'election'.

MDC are thugs, temporarily united but will divide in to two factions more interested in fighting each other than solving the country's problems as soon as they gain power.

So who is this 'we' Obourne?

Do you mean British troops?

Should they die so that one bunch of African thugs can be replaced by another?

Get real. Zimbabwe needs to deal with its own problems. They wanted independence they got it. End of story.

Zack

The words "Get real" ring of Bart, also no one would need to die. Just because he wants people to intervene does not mean he wants them to die.

Water

‘Whether a person belongs to the minority or the majority, that person’s human rights and fundamental freedoms are sacred’ Kofi got it right.

Niallster

Zack,

I am almost embarrassed to respond to your naive post.

How many British troops do you think it will take to subdue Zanu-PF who are literally fighting for their lives as if MDC take over they and their families will be slaughtered?

Do you think that British troops will achieve this questionable goal without casualties?

Grow up.

Zack

You're an idiot have you read nothing above, or did you just jump into this feet first. A well planned strike as posited above by many people would not require any losses. you add to the long line of loosers we come across.

Michael A

Nice to see another assumption making child.

Kiffa

Dear Speccie readers: this is a heartfelt question to all of you, from a 'racist, exploitist, colonial, etc. etc.' (whose family have been in Africa for 200+ years) ...
Do you now understand WHY 'white people' in Africa were so deeply reluctant to give power away to Africans? Do not even begin to think that Robert Mugabe is an exeption to the rule.
However nasty, selfish, inhumane and short-sighted white supremacy was (and it was), it was not an irrational reaction based on evil, and it WAS based on a realistic observation of an African fault line. Why the most wonderful people on the planet react so badly to power I do not know, but they do - whether it is as a postal worker up to President (for life). Nurses will charge patients for medicine and linen (ie, their job) and equally leave them to suffer (as do govt. officials) with absolute indifference - if there isn't a 'white' supervisor to impose order. Don't like that statement? It is happening today, right now.
Be in no doubt that you will be having this angst ridden debate about South Africa in 10 years' time. The ANC are having exactly the same authoritarian, incompetent and corrupt reaction - just as that disgusting inhumane regime predicted they would - and in the words of David Bullard (google him, he is seriously PNG at the moment) 'the ANC are hell-bent on proving that Africans cannot run countries'. It is heartbreaking. All ordinary Africans want, black and white, is to be governed well. The ONLY African statesman to have achieved this is Sir Seretse Khama of Botswana: the best politician Africa has produced. (Nelson isn't as saintly as you all think he is).
As in all dysfunctional relationships, whites and blacks each have 50% of the blame to shoulder. We never really talked to eachother, and we never agreed to complement eachother's virtues (ubuntu/ work ethic) and balance eachother's faults (incompetence and corruption/ racism). So sad. Such lovely warm people, such a beautiful continent.

jim aldridge

Thanks Kippa but this post has nothing to do with what you have mentioned, heartfelt or not (I don't mean to be rude but I loathe such tangents). Take a deep breath and relax. Oh yes shoot Moogibby

Phil M

A heartfelt cry, Kiffa!
I have only spent two weeks in Africa - Tanzania in 2001 - and have never been so moved by the warmth of a welcome and generosity from people who have so little materially. Full of resourcefulness and creativity as well, though cruelly hammered and weakened by malaria. I share your perplexity....

Will Parker

Jim you got it in one, please don't post things which have no place here.

Big Jim

Kiffa: At least it wasn't another post from Water. Jesus, does the man not need rest or sustenance?

Solomon

If Britain really felt they had a duty they would have done something about it a long time ago. Instead they push South Africa into doing that job but they forget that inasmuch as the countries are in fact rivals. SA has benefitted a lot from Zim poor position, farmers, skills etc and they know because of the more friendlier environment north of the limpopo investors are likely to opt for it once things stabilise.
SA is still full of tribalists unlike Zimbabwe

Water

Big Jim hehe thanks

Zack

Its not a case of if Britian wanted it by now it would have been done, its more a case of whether people in power wanted it, I guess you can never know what the country wants as a whole. By that measure Britian as a colective may feel it has a duty seperae to those at Labour HQ?

jim aldridge

Alot of stamina that Water person

Familiar Clown

"Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue"
-Duc de la Rochefoucauld

More and more African governments are at last turning on Mugabe and are becoming sharply critical of his violent and repressive depravities. Overall, the region appears to be evolving politically and economically, and they feel that this octogenarian, who does not accept his time has passed, is dragging them down.

Mugabe is no doubt fuming
'hypocrites' at his critics, and some states do not seem much more democratic than he is.
But even they are justified in feeling disgusted at the violence being orchestrated by Mugabe.

When the democratic laggards feel they have to make democratic noises it suggests at least that democracy is becoming fashionable in the region. That's progress!

Niallster

'A well planned strike as posited above by many people would not require any losses'

Twaddle from someone who clearly has never served. I am amazed no one has yet used the phrase 'surgical strike'. As if such a thing existed.

Reality, we would be stepping in to an African civil war and as always when we get involved in such places whatever we did or didn't do we would be in the wrong.

Someone else's war let them fight it.

Zack

Umm excuse me you expect me to believe a sniper couldn't shoot mugabae from a distance and then be extracted. You expect me to believe that he couldn't have been taken care of at the food summit a while back with compete ease? Utter tosh you are talking . You don't need to have military experience to know that if you're far enough away or in a comfortable enviroment then your are fine. Also I have not been in the army though having seen people shot in Africa and I know that it is possible to do such a thing, if a civilian can kill clinically sure as hell person from the army can.

OLOGE Iyinoluwa

It’s important that statements made in The Spectator are checked for correctness especially when such statements are presented as facts. I can agree with Peter Oborne that various international parties are lackadaisical towards the situation in Zimbabwe but in defending this position, Peter described Nigeria’s Yakubu Gowon as a man “…who seized power in Nigeria from a coalition government”. This statement is false; Gowon was selected by northern military officers in Nigeria to head the government after a coup that Gowon clearly did not orchestrate left the country in confusion. Therefore, I can understand why the Economic Community of West African States has appointed Gowon to head its mission of monitoring the election process in Zimbabwe. Gowon led Africa’s largest nation through a wrecking civil crisis (The Nigerian Civil War) and successfully restored order making him qualify as a good spectator and analyst of the Zimbabwen situation.

It’s unfair to deliberately look out for faults in various setups just to justify a view.

Kiffa

Jim Aldridge and Will Parker, what?? Irrelevant? Do you know anything of the history of Africa at all? What you immediately dismissed as 'racism' [which you clearly have] and therefore 'irrelevant' has absolutely everything everything to do with what is going on, for the following reasons: income imbalance. skills shortages. institutions. institutional memory. management skills. All highly, highly relevant. In fact, you have probably not set foot in Africa because your disdainful dismissal shows up your ignorance. You CANNOT run anything if you do not possess the skills sets. Do you have any idea what institutions and skills are vital for a country to run properly? I do, but I don't think you do. Why do Africans not have the skills? Duh.... That is a far cry from your stupid liberal assumption that I was implying that 'blacks are stupid'. 'Liberators' every single one of them has made the mistake of rapid Africanisation (why do they follow the path of rapid Africanisation? Duh...) - and their countries flowed down the inevitable swanny. Like D Short I too have watched soldiers shooting, and stumbled across corpses. I rather agree with his fat arse comment, too. We have every right in the world to criticise bad governance, whether you like it or not.

Niallster

Zack you make my head hurt but I will respond to your comments one last time.

So we send in an assassination squad to slot Mugabe do we?

1. as Mugabe now has no power what would this achieve?

2. even if Mugabe had power what would this achieve? The ZANU-PF leaders are all now so steeped in blood that they know that they must retain power or be slaughtered. OK a handful have fortunes abroad and could slip away but the majority don't, which brings us on to 3.

3. are you further suggesting that we decapitate ZANU-PF by assassinating the leaders of the armed forces, the police, the 'war veterans' and the party officials if so how many are we talking? 1,000, 5,000? Getting a lot less 'surgical strike' and a lot more involvement in a civil war suddenly isn't it? Which brings me on to 4.

4. say we achieve 1. 3. or both and install MDC in power then the blood letting we unleash will be unprecedented in the history of Africa (which is saying something). Can you assure me 100% that you and your pals will not insist that the British Army go in to 'clean up the mess they created'?

Guarantee me 4. and maybe we can talk.

Kiffa

Water, I am afraid that 'getting rid of' Mugabe with a bullet would do absolutely nothing. Zimbabwe consists of layers and layers and layers of corruption, from Mugabe right down to the manager of your local Spar. If you have FX - pounds, dollars, rands - you can get absolutely anything you want, there are no shortages then. Zanu-PF infiltrates every single layer from government contracts to the petrol coupons they sell on.
This violence and economic breakdown started ONLY when the white farmers made the terrible mistake of assuming they were Zimbabweans, and got involved in politics (MDC). Imagine, a legally elected party with whites in it! That is when the farm invasions started, by revenge. Mugabe, always a vindictive man essentially has said 'if I am going down you are coming with me'. But he did have a point: he reached out the hand of reconciliation to the whites, and left them entirely alone for the first 15 years. He never could understand why they did not 'accept him as their leader'. (Africans tend to absolutism). But then Africans don't understand the concept of opposition and don't tolerate it. Oops, there is some knowledge of Africa slipping out again. Must be racist.

Familiar Clown

"Someone else's war, let them fight it."
Hang on- One says, the UN has a duty. Sanctions, says another. The SADC must speak out, say many. Or must the answer come from the weak President Mbeki of South Africa? Oh no, he thinks that Mugabe and Tsvangirai have got to form a government of national unity.

Mugabe said last week that only God who appointed him can depose him, not the MDC, not the British. Mugabe is obseesed with 'the British'. But why not the British? Before Mugabe totally destroys the country I'm sure a group of commandos could be organised to rid the country of Mugabe. Any other solution will only prolong the agony for a desolate population.
Perhaps it's time to put Brown under pressure?

Niallster

STOP THE PRESS BRITAIN TAKES ACTION:

Lord Malloch Brown... stepped back from intensifying Britain’s role in confronting Mr Mugabe, and said it would not strip him of an honorary knighthood.

Er... or perhaps not.

Will Parker

Kiffa I have certainly been to Africa as a surgeon and have done charity work, as a result I have seen the death muck and bullets but you know what its irrelevant and I certainly don’t care for a show and tell you child.
This said please don’t make assumptions dear I didn’t “immediately [dismiss anything] as 'racism' … and therefore 'irrelevant'”, it’s not relevant to this thread though because this isn’t some exegesis about Africanisation, look at the title it will tell you what the story is about. And anyone with some brain cells to make hell fire with knows from the above comments D Short talk’s rubbish. Maybe you have been spending too long on your ‘fat ass’ and the fat has seeped up your spine and coagulated your cerebral functions.

jim aldridge

Kiffa do wake up dear, your boring us with your blatant mistake. It's all very well but not relevant.

Zack

1. What do you mean no power the man is still attempting to hold on to power and Mr T has given up! Try reading this dear (http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11609190&source=features_box_main). So getting rid of him would achieve a fair bit I’m not going to dumb it down for you.
2. Read the article, what his death would achieve is self explanatory.
3. this is again self explanatory
4. Nobody said I wanted to reinstall anything I said it would give people a chance to breathe if we got rid of him.
Ultimatley seeing the flippancy of your earlier remarks I don’t want to talk to you.

Niallster

'Killing Mugabe would give people a chance to breathe?'

Do you even read this drivel before you post it?

Zimmitydooda

Two years ago US$1 was about
Z$125,000. But today (XE.com) US$1 = Z$8,260,031,632.

That's: Eight billion,two hundred and sixty million, thirty-one thousand, six hundred and thirty-two dollars to buy what? A can of lemonade?

And what will that sum buy next month? No wonder they're eating termites.

Zack

Drivel, have you read your own you flippant idiot.

jim aldridge

I certainly don't blame you for the remark Zack I'm surprised you even gave him that much.

Tom

No, patricia, pet. Zimbabwe has no parallels whatsoever with the Palestinian terrorists.

Ephraim Hardcastle today notes that a lot of ANC officials have apparently helped Mugabe set up lots of mineral deals with the Chinese and that's why the ANC doesn't want to interfere with Mugabe.

Kiffa

To call Thabo Mbeki weak is to assume that he thinks like you and has somehow 'failed' to do anything.
Thabo Mbeki does not think like you. He thinks like Robert Mugabe.
Another irrelevance I suppose.

jim aldridge

The mans many things weak, well, its not one of them. Also no body is calling him weak kipper.

Adriaan

Why on earth would you want to do that?? Let me explain, I am white and was borne in Africa, my ancestors came here 350 years ago, I know no other home. There was once a great leader in that country that created wealth, housing, education and prosperity, the only problem was: He was white. Uncle Bob’s only remaining selling point to the population is that: if you don’t support me the whites will come back! It can unfortunately not be called racism because as all children of the West has been brought up knowing that only white people can be racist. So even if you remove him, what changes the belief system of black people all over Africa or even just in that country, if you, yourselves are constantly selling them the that belief????? Just for interest if South Africa’s ANC ruled in Europe they would have been called the White Nationalist Congress!! You see it never had anything to do with the continent.

Untebe

I'm black and from Zim if you get rid of Mr M you'll make our life easier, my sister has been raped and my world is falling apart around me .I couldn't explain tings over here for fear of possible monitoring on a public computer. Though Killing Mr M would allow for things to fall apart. Please help!

Kiffa

'Nobody is calling him weak Kiffa'. So what is this comment? - 'Or must the answer come from the weak President Mbeki of South Africa?'

Shut up Jim, you are getting boring. You know nothing of Africa. The discussion, as you reminded me, is what to do about Zimbabwe. The president of South Africa has the key - for a western 'democratic' solution (ie. the forcing out of power of an incompetent tyrant). Thabo Mbeki supports and admires Robert Mugabe as an anti-imperialist liberator and a 'father figure' [that is an Mbeki quote by the way], and as early as 2002 endorsed elections his own officials told him were severely flawed. I am sorry you find it very inconvenient to keep being told that African leaders are supremely indifferent to the sufferings of the people they have power over, (and that wicked whites were more consciencious) but you will keep being told it. Because it is true.

jim aldridge

For a start I’m not shutting up though thanks for your advise. I’m more then aware of the situation, also how did you come to the conclusion about the fact that I know nothing about Africa? Because I missed a comment from familiar clown, please you’re getting more then boring, I feel a deep sense of pity. Your incessant stating of the truth and bleating aside, Untebe has me wondering.

jim aldridge

Your incessentent stating of the obvious aside, we are all more then aware of the Africa leaders position (though you can keep repeating it kipper) the first step (which I will keep repeating to furfil the duty) would be to eliminate Mugabae. Conversation that would yeild real causal consequences, not moaning about the obvious but rather how a duty could be furfilled. I am sorry you find that boring but you will keep being told that. As I said before your thoughts are great but not relevant.

Zack

The sound of a broken record that doesn't know when to play. Mastered the art of making sound, but doesn't know what the contextually correct is from that which shouldn't be put on display. Though we all may watch the inappropriate fish, still it continues to wriggle, not understanding that stating the obvious maker him or he the fishy not the piggy in the middle.

Sally S

Oh gum drops another mind reader who thinks the rest of us know nothing.

Kiffa

Zac are you having an existential crisis, or just a schizoid moment?

You CAN'T assume post industrial institutions and values, which is what you are all doing, is all I am saying! They are not a given! It is what Mr Botha said, and what D Short said, and what Adriaan said. But you can't get your heads round that... and who suffers? The likes of Untebe - ordinary Africans - suffer.
I know that Zimbabweans are pinning big hopes onto Tsvangerai and the MDC. I can quote a 'white' farmer who was involved in the MDC (which started all this off): 'if we didn't suggest it, if we didn't organise it, if we didn't follow it through, nothing happened' THAT by the way, is why Mugabe was so threatened. Because whites were getting involved again.
Oh, well, you don't like Afro-realism, you call it Afro-pessimism, suspectly racist and irrelevant, so I will wish all luck.

Dzvoko

I find it fascinating that the western leaders are falling over each other to "protect" the people of Zimbabwe. It is true that the situation in Zimbabwe is desperate. It is true the Mugabe regime has to be cleansed. But one thing the West seems to forget is that the Zimbabweans and Africans at large can protect themselves to some degree. Zimbabweans overthrew western racial abuse. Britain and her friends hosted a conference to get Smith out smoothly. There was never talk of regime change. The same as in South Africa. Britain and her friends blocked UN resolutions calling for the release of Mandela, whom they are pampering today. Why is the same efforts not being followed in Sudan, Somalia etc. I have never heard of regime change in Somalia. Gordon