High Life

David Hurley

"... is vaporising and incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians any better? Just because it’s done from the air? The answer is nein, it’s just victor’s hypocrisy at work."

Well said, Taki. I have lived in Hiroshima for several years and have come to a similar conclusion. Glad we won, though.

David Short

"To a letter by a Spectator reader politely reminding me of the behaviour of the Germans and the Japanese during the last war. Well, yes, but is vaporising and incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians any better? Just because it’s done from the air? The answer is nein, it’s just victor’s hypocrisy at work."

Nein. The Japanese were given the choice of surrender before hundreds of thousands of their civilians were incinerated and vaporised.

Twice.

They finally only gave in becaus the Russians were nearing their borders.

The Japanese gave no mercy to their enemies even after surrender.

Now, is Taki going to deny or defend the Holocaust next?

How you still allow this man to write for you is a mystery to many.

ToM

Despite his advanced age, Taki still does not seem to understand the long- and well-established right of the US, the UK and Israel (a trio also known as the "international community") to vaporise and incinerate the inhabitants of any country that refuses to surrender to them.

Gil

ToM, it's not very clever nor mature to chuck slogans around purely for 'shock' value. You may be 'all Hizbullah now' but you're backing a losing horse.

William

Of course it is the, apparently still swelling, vanity and hypocrisy of the 'victor'. I thought the Japanese who of course behaved atrociously were eventually ready to surrender, but this was kept secret. Taki is right. Pope John Paul was right. It is wrong to build bombs, especially for purely aggressive and destructive purposes. The atom bombs should not have been built, Dresden should not have been bombed and the Soviet regime should not have been supported and allowed to take eastern Poland. We, the British and her allies, could be said to have lost the war because we lost Poland who we had set out to defend, many of whose brave citizens were sent to Vorkuta and countless other evil places.

David Short

William, the US won the war. We British didn't win and we didn't lose.

The US took over the leadership of the world from us as the price for our 'freedom'.

You say 'the atom bomb should never have been built'.

But it was, and it saved countless lives by shortening the conflict.

If it had not been built by the Americans, it would later (and not too much later) been built by the Germans.

I wonder if they would have been so abstemious in its use if they had got there first.

And the British did not go to war to defend Poland; it was merely an excuse.

They thought the Germans were a threat to the British Empire, and that's why the British went to war.

The British Empire did die as a result of WW2, but not in the way the Germans planned.

And the outcome on the domestic front, at least, was the equivalent of a revolution in Britain.

Labour won by a landslide and changed British society for the better.

It was only the period 1997-2007 that a British government succeed in reversing the achievements of post-war Labour governments in making British society fairer, more equal, and better-educated.

Colonial Mike

David, in trotting out the standard left wing line in your last paragraph, you spoil a plausible argument.

What I believe has happened is this. One equal vote per head means the masses, the least capable and productive, win elections and rule. They see what the more successful - and, yes, what some of the stupid offspring of the successful have - and they want the same. So they sneer and take for themselves via taxes and a welfare state. Which in turn alienates the talented and drives them away to pursue the professions and accumulating wealth.

Pendulums overshoot and today in the UK you have some of the most overindulged workers and lower orders in the history of the planet - footballers and those that spend the money that enables their existence would be a good example - and some of the most revolting newly rich.

David Short

Colonial Mike, you must have been in the colonies too long.

The Labour Goverment was not voted in by the 'masses'. They drew fewer than 23 per cent of the votes of the electorate, so have no meaningful mandate.

The Blair administrations unashamedly favoured the rich; remember Mandelson's comments about being comfortable about the filthy rich, that non-doms pay no tax, and that rich people donated/loaned huge sums to Labour.

And I have been called many things, but never 'left wing' for a long time.

Colonial Mike

David,

The damage started long ago. The politics of envy, largesse for the work shy and the move to the whole "something for nothing" nanny state mentality started in earnest as soon as Churchill departed.

Blairs lot were later arrivals, at the top of the left wing pile, the animals that were more equal than the other animals.

I do not believe you can credit "post-war Labour governments in making British society fairer, more equal, and better-educated." These steps forward were a result of an enormous, general global advancement and the massive creation of wealth that happened in spite of Labour, its attitudes and its unions. Not because of them.

Or have I been missing something as I sit under a Masasa tree and watch the implosion of the African states about which the left was so hopelessly naive and whose once British citizens it was so happy to dump?

David Short

I grew up in a Tyneside cold water slum in the Fifties and Sixties, so I know a little bit about what Labour achieved post-war.

I agree with you about the future of some African states, but I think you have to let people ruin their own countries if they want to.

The calibre and culture of the people decided the future.

South Africa is going downhill faster than anyone could ever imagine, and very few people in Britain have a clue.

Kenya went through a period from December last year when people thought it would never pull through, but it did get back almost to normal.

Angola will re-industrialise again and overtake South Africa.

Central Africa will always be a basket case.

As for Zim, the future is anyone's guess.

You can't generalise about post-colonial Africa.

Colonial Mike

I meant to comment on Zimbabwe. I see it as simple.

Zims economy was based on agriculture and the efforts of highly skilled white farmers. They are gone and will not come back without major UK / UN guarantees. Which are unlikely. The farms rot.

Without the white farmers, no tax base. And no money to pay for the roads, schools, police and all the other nice goodies we like in a modern society. Sure, a bit of income from mining and probably an early, aid money based, honeymoon. But short term.

Thereafter it will simply be another Zambia. With the current Chinese presence getting ever stronger.

Colonial Mike

You can I believe generalise to the extent of saying that the post colonial period, apart from Botswana, was a monumental disaster for all. With one exception - the thugs in control who did very well as they looted state coffers, to the extent that Africa's gross debt is now more or less equal to the amount stolen by Africa's leaders. A good example is Angola where they were reported a few years ago in the Economist to be diverting $5 000 000.00 per day - yes, per day - from the proceeds of oil flows into their foreign bank accounts.

It called reverting to form. Hunter - Gather form. The chief takes all and the masses see this as quite proper. Far more important that they build soccer stadiums and get rid of the whites. Its simply the historical way of Africa.

SA heads fast to becoming an upmarket Nigeria. A tacky mess. Some very wealthy. A huge mass of the poor.

And the rest? Nature fills vacuums. A strengthening Asia, a weakening West, global resource shortages and a backward population would suggest some sort of Chinese economic recolonisation.

Well meaning, silly people like Bono and Geldorf will ensure that the West is focused on feel good, feed the poor, patch up type / solutions whilst the No 1 thugs get rich off Chinese backhanders as they rape wealth and resources.

Yet another example of the human being's uncanny ability never to miss an opportunity to shoot his feet.