Andrew John is a ‘radical’, not a politician – or so he claims. The Archbishop of Wales stated his mission when he was elected to the post barely two years ago after a swift and overwhelming majority among the Church in Wales’s electoral college. John is low-key, humble and mild mannered in person, but is also unafraid to speak his mind: he has aired uncompromising views on migration, integrity in public life and nationalism. His most outspoken opinions are on the issue of Welsh independence.
Earlier this year, John went further than any of his predecessors in expressing his personal thoughts on the subject: he said the ‘situation we have received from Westminster is not sufficient’ – and that he is ‘in favour of independence’ to help ‘solve’ the country’s problems. So, does he think he went too far?
‘The reason why I wanted to say it,’ the Archbishop tells me, ‘is that there needs to be a sense in which Wales is able to control and craft its own future.’ The opportunity to decide taxation levels and spending priorities are ‘important things’, he says, while arguing that devolution is only increasing. ‘It may have a natural limit, but I don’t think that we’ve arrived at that point yet. And, I think, that there is a sense in which a child eventually comes of age.’
‘I think it also derives,’ he says, ‘from the sense that Welsh life needs to flourish on its own terms and for Welsh people. A broader argument, which will be applicable not only to Wales, is the principle of self-determination.’
Should bishops really be talking about such things? Some MPs think clergy stray too far into politics, pitting Church against State. But John disagrees: ‘We are no longer on a pedestal,’ he says of himself and his colleagues. ‘We are subject to criticism and scrutiny, and that’s good. But I do agree that sometimes you walk an incredibly thin line.’ He makes a point of emphasising that he does not want to be always a ‘bishop of protest’ like others. Instead, John would rather ‘be somebody who crafts a better society for Wales and a better future for our Church.’
His most outspoken views are on the issue of Welsh independence – which John is in favour of
John sees many ‘disastrous’ trends in the UK over recent years, particularly the cost-of-living crisis, which means debating political policy must be on the agenda. The Archbishop is, at the very least, self-aware enough to realise his comments on issues like food bank reliance – an ‘outrage’ in modern Britain – are sometimes interpreted ‘poorly’ by some on the centre and the right. ‘Because they’ve understood this to be largely a left wing kind-of agenda. I’ve tried to say to political colleagues: “When it comes to matters of justice, we should all be concerned about them.” It’s a matter of how we get there, that’s where we might need to have some debate.’
Since becoming Archbishop, John has become one of Wales’s most outspoken public figures. His views have pitted him against the Tory Secretary of State for Wales, David TC Davies. Extracts of a leaked letter from Davies to John appeared in the Western Mail newspaper in February, which criticised the Archbishop for airing ‘divisive’ views.
‘I’d really welcome a conversation with the Secretary of State,’ John says, before I interrupt. Have they really not met since the letter was made public? ‘No, I haven’t. I would really welcome that. Because an adult conversation would be: “How are we going to find Welsh solutions for Welsh situations?” I think an adult conversation, rather than trying to brief against one another. Wouldn’t it be good if we could find a way in which we can have those conversations in a way that was purposeful and good? I would welcome that wholeheartedly.’
Tension between the Conservatives and the Church in Wales is nothing new. In his letter to the Archbishop, Davies recalled a comment made on social media by the Bishop of St Davids in 2021, Dr Joanna Penberthy, who tweeted: ‘Never, never, never trust a Tory.’ A swift apology from the author followed. John has distanced himself from the remark before, and does so again when I ask for his reflections.
‘There’s a way of engaging well and seriously with really important matters that affect us all,’ he says. ‘But the way that we do that is not to be disdainful and not to be in any way mocking or tearing down people.’ John goes on to emphasise the ‘very good’ relationships he has with Welsh Tories in Cardiff Bay, who he says work ‘incredibly hard’ and are ‘very good and effective people.’
Talk of politics brings us to consider a favourite subject of clergy: morality in public life. This is when the Archbishop becomes most animated, not least on the UK government’s Rwanda asylum plan.
‘One of the things that strikes me about the Rwanda plan is that it’s just so morally revolting,’ he says
‘One of the things that strikes me about that [the asylum plan] is that it’s just so morally revolting,’ he says. ‘It feels and sounds a little bit like the days when we would transport people away from the country to Australia.’
John says we should not put our ‘heads in the sand’ over the stability and democratic standards of the Rwandan government, and that any criminals found should be sent back to the country which they have come from. ‘Sending people to Rwanda seems to me, morally quite indefensible,’ he adds.
The Archbishop is not finished there, urging politicians to tell the hard truths. ‘One of the reasons why Rwanda is a dreadful policy is because it’s trying to create a solution where we know that what’s needed is much more expensive, and much more difficult and much harder to achieve,’ he argues. ‘It involves very close working relationships with the French government…the development of Border Force controls and appropriate places where people can be housed while their applications are being processed.’
In stark contrast to this fury, the Archbishop’s eyes light up when discussing the ‘compassion’ Wales has shown towards refugees, from Afghanistan to Ukraine. ‘My heart sings [that] there’s a recognition of the principle that I think is deeply rooted in Holy Scripture, which is the parable of the Good Samaritan. It’s caring for the other.’
The Archbishop has steered the Church in Wales to adopt a more progressive stance, passing legislation in 2021 that meant couples could have their marriage or civil partnership blessed. While John admits ‘some’ have left the Church in Wales in response, he hopes that same-sex weddings will be held in churches across Wales this decade.
‘This is an important issue for the church because it makes us more generous,’ John says. ‘It makes us more welcoming. It makes us more inclusive. And it shows that the wonderful institution of marriage and of our belonging to people we love and care for can be expanded.’
If some of his Church in Wales colleagues agree, the same cannot be said of all of the wider Anglican Communion. I ask about the response of church leaders in some countries, such as Uganda and South Sudan, who have expressed their anger toward the Church of England following the General Synod’s decision to allow clergy to bless couples in same-sex marriages. Some have gone as far as to say they no longer recognise Justin Welby’s leadership of the church globally.
While it is ‘terribly unfortunate’ when people walk away from the Anglican Communion, John is uncompromising in his support for his fellow Archbishop. ‘I think he’s (Welby’s) behaved with impeccable integrity when he’s been attacked. He’s been patient. And he’s been very skilful in the way in which he’s managed the differing and competing claims made within the Anglican Communion.’ He goes on to say that Welby needs ‘support and recognition that he’s between a rock and a hard place. I think he’s done an extremely good job.’
Despite the church’s difficulties, John is adamant that Christianity continues to play a key role – a view he reiterates in his Easter message this weekend. ‘We’re not offering just a religious pill for people to take but what we’re saying is that Christ offers us not only a way of responding personally, but the gospel invites us to engage with these things,’ he says. ‘It’s not good enough for us simply to be concerned about ourselves. We have to have a regard for our neighbour. We can’t leave the things that are wrong and broken in our society left unbroken. We have to respond to them.’
John’s clamour for radicalism reflects a rebellious principle with a common thread through the history of the Welsh church, which gained its independence from the Church of England in 1920. An unstoppable tide of secularism has not discouraged Archbishop Andrew to change tact, either, but go further and faster with institutional reform and political intervention.
John says that he has ‘every confidence in the ingenuity of Welsh people and Welsh political and religious life to craft a good future for Wales.’ Again, John observes that he is ‘less persuaded’ that Westminster is the answer.
‘Despite some politicians being cross with me saying these things, we need to ask what is going to allow us as a nation to respond to the challenges in a way where we really take responsibility for our own life,’ he concludes. ‘So we are able to craft that future that I think could be so bright and so hopeful.’ The Archbishop of Wales: a radical, yes, but not a politician? I’m not so sure.
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