AN: Nicola Sturgeon the SNP has governed Scotland for ten years, so can we start by agreeing that the performance of Scottish public services is the responsibility of you and the SNP government?
NS: I take responsibility for the performance of our public services, although Scotland’s overall budget of course is determined by decisions taken at Westminster and our budget has been reduced over the years since the Conservatives have been in office.
AN: Let’s start then with Alex Salmond’s former head of policy Alex Bell, this is what he’s had to say. ‘The evidence shows that we, the SNP, haven’t closed the poverty gap, redistributed wealth, improved education of educated more poor people. The sad truth is that pretty much everything we have done to date hasn’t worked.’
NS: Well, it won’t surprise you to hear, Andrew, I don’t agree with that assessment. Let me take education for example, because it’s something I have said is my top priority and something I have recognised we’ve got more work to do on. But it’s not true to say that we haven’t seen improvements in Scottish education. If you take the attainment gap, for example, and take level five qualifications, which are broadly equivalent to the old O grades and standard grades and in Scotland, we’ve seen more young people achieve those, but we’ve also seen the gap between the richest pupils and the poorest pupils almost half. We’ve also seen the number of poorest pupils that leave school with no qualifications half as well. So there’s real progress been made. But I make no bones about the fact I want us to see more progress, which is my we’ve now a major programme of reform under way in Scottish education.
AN: I’m going to come onto education and the details in a minute, but overall this former head of policy for Mr Salmond, he calls it the ‘lost decade.’
NS: Well, he’s a former head of policy and I don’t agree with that assessment.
AN: Quite a damning criticism. From inside your own party.
NS: I don’t accept the facts and figures bear out that assessment. You said we’ll come onto education, I’m happy to do so. If you take health, for example, we increased the health budget substantially, we’ve got the best performing accident and emergency service.
AN: I’m going to come onto health in a minute too. Let me start with the Scottish economy. Because it’s now growing at less than a quarter of the pace of the UK economy. It could be on the brink of recession. Don’t you think that you should end your obsession with independence and start generating some growth in Scotland?
NS: Well, again, let the take the facts and figures on the economy. Yes, we’ve seen growth for the UK as a whole, we’ve seen growth – we’ve also had the issues, the problems with North Sea oil and gas which has fed through the Scottish supply chain. But you know, if you look at the GDP performance in Scotland, now the recovery from the pre-recession GDP has actually been stronger than in the UK. Unemployment is now more than it is across the UK. We’ve seen productivity increase at a faster rate than the rest of the UK. So as on education, as on health, I’m not sitting and saying there’s not a big job of work for an SNP government to do, but your assessment that, you know, in everything you want to point to there is no progress is just flatly wrong.
AN: But it was Mr Bell that was… it’s not me.
NS: I don’t agree with Mr Bell on this.
AN: But on the Scottish economy, last year the UK economy overall grew by almost two per cent, the Scottish economy grew by less than half a per cent. That’s a terrible record.
NS: But you know as well as I do that the difficulties that have been experienced in the oil and gas have a disproportionately heavy effect in Scotland because of the importance of that sector to the Scottish economy. So that has been one of the reasons why we’ve seen a difference in performance. But you know, the recovery of GDP in Scotland from the pre-recession is 1.8 per cent higher. It’s less than that in the rest of the UK. And employment is doing well. Unemployment is more. We are outperforming the UK in youth employment and female employment. I’m working very hard with the Scottish government that that’s not the case. But we saw figures for the UK GDP just as the end of the week that showed there’s also a slowing of growth because of the Brexit effect, and Scotland is not immune from the impact of the Brexit vote.
AN: But why would the Brexit effect have a bigger impact on Scotland than the rest of the United Kingdom? It hasn’t had an effect on British productivity.
NS: If you listen to what I’m saying, I wasn’t saying the Brexit effect had had a bigger impact, I actually was saying that the reason for the different performance of the Scottish economy is the difficulties in the oil and gas.
AM: So it’s not Brexit?
NS: I think there is and will continue to be a Brexit effect on our economy, but if you listened to what I was saying, I was not saying that that was greater in Scotland that the rest of the UK. I was pointing to the particular issues in the oil and gas.
AN: Your Finance Minister, Mr McKay, he blamed the economic reality of Brexit for the falls.
NS: My view is there is an impact of Brexit we’re seeing in terms of the value of sterling, the inflation effects in our economy. But you know, what you’re asking me –
AN: Do you know, I don’t understand why Brexit would have a disproportionately bad effect on Scotland.
NS: I haven’t argued –
AN: But that’s what your Finance Minister did.
NS: Well, you’re putting something to me that I haven’t argued.
AN: 5th April 2017, Derek McKay, he said it reflected quote, ‘the economic reality of Brexit.’
NS: But he wasn’t saying that was disproportionate in Scotland. But you’ve asked me about the performance of the Scottish economy and I’m saying whether it’s on the recovery of GDP from the pre-recession, whether it’s on unemployment, which in Scotland is lower than the UK average, whether it’s on productivity – I’ll give you another indicator for indirect investment into the Scottish we had the latest EY report out last week showing for the fifth year in a row Scotland is the best performing part of the UK outside of London and the South East. And when it comes R&D investment we are the best bar no part of the UK. We see one in 50 foreign investment projects in Europe now coming to Scotland. So there’s much to be positive about in the Scottish economy, but much to do as well.
AN: Let’s come on to education, you mentioned. It’s been clear for some time that Scottish education has some real problems. Official surveys show divides in literacy and numeracy. Scottish schools are plummeting in the global league tables. Why have you only just noticed? Were you too busy on the second referendum to get stuck into the schools?
NS: Well, again, I started out doing – I can point you to a number of indicators that show improvements in Scottish education, and a narrowing of the attainment gap. So the statistics I gave you earlier on level 5 qualifications, not only are we seeing more young people achieving those qualifications, we’re seeing the gap between the richest and poorest narrow. We’re seeing the number –
AN: That’s partly because the top 20 per cent are not doing so well. It’s not because the bottom 20 per cent are doing well,
NS: That’s actually not true.
AN: Well, it is actually. The Pisa survey that the, the authoritative global survey, showed that the highest achievers in Scotland were now in decline, from 8.8 per cent to just over 7 per cent.
NS: The strategic scores in Scottish education, which measure not just the quantity of qualifications that young people but the quality as well. It shows that performance in the top 20 per cent has improved by about nine per cent but the performance of the bottom 20 per cent has improved by 26 per cent. We’ve also got more young people, including more of our poorest young people, going into university than has been the case before now. I say that simply to set the context. I have been very frank about the fact that I want to see further improvement in Scottish education, so that’s why we’ve got a new national improvement framework, it’s why we’ve established an attainment fund. I was talking to a head teacher in Scotland yesterday to talk about what he described as the life-changing impact of the pupil equity fund that we’ve introduced in Scottish education. So there’s progress made, to be positive about, but there’s much more work to do.
AN: There’s no progress on what matters, which is reading, mathematics, science. In 2006, since 2006 on this, Pisa, the main international study, Scotland has dropped from 11th to 23rd in reading, 11th to 24th in maths, 10th to 19th in science. That’s a terrible performance isn’t it?
NS: Well, those statistics are from two years ago and I recognise those. They predate the reform programme that we’ve put in place. But I don’t think it matters – you said we’re not improving where it matters, I actually do think the qualifications that our young people are coming out of school with do matter. We’re seeing more young people coming out with highers and advanced highers. We’re seeing more young people going into university, we’re seeing the positive destinations of young people continuing to increase. So I am not sitting – and remember, the record of the SNP Scottish government was assessed by the Scottish people at the Scottish parliament election last year and we won that election with a higher constituency vote than any party in the entire lifetime of the Scottish parliament.
AN: On top of this international study your own official body on literacy and numeracy came out with some pretty damning figures about what was happening there. And if you can’t get literacy and numeracy right I’m not sure what you can get right in education. Your response to the Scottish survey of literacy and numeracy, official –
NS: Firstly it’s not an organisation, it’s a survey that we carry out.
AN: Yes, and you’ve closed it down.
NS: Let me take –
AN: You’ve closed it down.
NS: Because it’s a sample survey that is based on information on about 12 pupils per secondary school. What we are replacing it with is comprehensive data broken down not just by local authority but school by school. That survey –
AN: This survey was highly regarded in educational circles wasn’t it?
NS: As First Minister it doesn’t tell me anything about the performance of individual schools, so I’m replacing it with something that will give us not just sample data but data on every pupil in every school in Scotland.
AN: Which the teachers will provide.
NS: Informed by standardised assessments.
AN: But will you publish the standardised assessments for every school?
NS: We will publish the information.
AN: For each school?
NS: For each school we’ll publish the information on the percentage of pupils that are meeting the required levels of the curriculum for excellence. So the SSLN – and I want to come back to the point in SSLN, because it’s important.
AN: Which is the survey on literacy.
NS: Yes.
AN: And numeracy.
NS: I want to come back to that. Take the performance of young people at S2, which is where the decline in reading was recorded. That is measuring S2 secondary and second year secondary school pupils against the standards they are supposed to meet at the end of the third year of secondary school. We have separate data that shows that by the time those S2 pupils come out of third year more than 80 per cent of them are meeting the required standard. Now, I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t pay a lot of attention to that survey, but what I’m sure is there’s a lot of other data in Scottish education which sort of tells a different story to the one you’re trying to tell me now.
AN: But this survey provided a benchmark. And the results were not kind to your policies and you’ve closed it down. You won’t do it again. You shot the messenger. Other global studies have shown Scottish schools in relative decline. You’ve pulled out of them too. You’ve pulled out of two major studies.
NS: Firstly, you’ve just quoted an international global study to me, the Pisa study, which Scottish education is part of.
AN: But you’ve pulled out of two others that were global studies too.
NS: We wanted to focus on making sure we got the information that gave us the best picture of how Scottish education is performing. But I have to say it’s an absolutely travesty for you to sit here and say to me that in somehow moving from SSLN – if you look at the methodological notes at the end of SSLN, it tells you that survey is based on something like four pupils per primary school and 12 pupils per secondary school. What we are doing is replacing that sample survey, that tells you nothing about local authority performance, it tells you nothing about individual school performance, with comprehensive data.
AN: Alright.
NS: You don’t want to hear this.
AN: No, no, I do want to hear it, all I’m saying is this was a highly regarded survey that you are now closing down when the result was not good.
NS: We are going to be publishing data on every school. I will be much more accountable as a result of the more comprehensive data we’re publishing. The government will be more accountable, local authorities will be more accountable, and we will absolutely be able to track the benefits and the performance of schools based on the interventions we’re making.
AN: The SNP’s great boast is that students don’t pay tuition fees in Scotland. You claim it improves social mobility. So why is it twice as hard for a Scottish kid from a deprived background to get to university than an English kid from a deprived background?
NS: Firstly we’ve seen record numbers of Scottish young people going to university. But including record numbers of young people from the most deprived backgrounds.
AN: It’s still twice as hard.
NS: The second – well, the second point, which I’m sure is one that you’re well aware of is that the figures don’t reflect what is a very important difference between how young people in Scotland and England access higher education. A much larger proportion of young people in Scotland do higher education in further education colleges. So what you just quoted me there.
AN: But I’m talking about universities.
NS: Sure but I think the figures – I think the figure you’ve quoted there is about access to higher education.
AN: No, the figure is for people going from school to university from poorer backgrounds, and it’s almost twice as tough in Scotland from a poorer background that from England.
NS: The point is a lot of people do higher education courses in further education colleges.
AN: And then go to university.
NS: Well some of them do, some of them don’t.
AN: Right, but I’m talking about university.
NS: Look, I think it is accepted there is a difference in how these figures are gathered.
AN: Not by much. I looked at this, ‘cause you’ve said this before. By and large the figures of when you leave school to go to university are comparable for Scotland and England and they show that it’s twice a tough if you’re a poor kid in Scotland.
NS: Well we’re seeing increases in the number of young people from the poorest backgrounds going to university and we – that’s why we’ve established a Widening Access commission that is looking at how we make further progress. We’re the only part of the UK I think still today that has legislated in terms of free access to university. We set targets for equal access by 2030. We are funding protected places at university to meet –
AN: Only one in twelve at our top universities in Scotland are from poor backgrounds.
NS: Well again you keep sort of changing the parameters of this.
AN: No, I’ve just stuck to universities.
NS: Well you said top universities. That’s not all universities so you need to change your –
AN: Well one in 12 from the top then.
NS: Look, are our young people from more deprived backgrounds underrepresented in our universities. Yes, but we’re seeing that improve and we have a programme of work to improve it further.
AN: Why did you cut maintenance grants for poorer students?
NS: We have got the best package of student support of any of the UK nations. It’s a combination of grants and loans. In England of course bursaries, grants are being abolished completely.
AN: And you cut the grants.
NS: We have – in the last couple of years we have increased the value of the grant proportion and we’ve increased the income threshold at which young people qualify for the maximum grant. What we did was establish a minimum income guarantee for students which is, yes, a combination of grants and loans, but we are protecting the continuation of grants as part of that. In England grants, bursaries are completely being abolished.
AN: But grants in Scotland are lower.
NS: Because we – yes, we’re introducing loans.
AN: And grants are what matter to working class kids. They need to be able to support themselves through university.
NS: Well that – which is why in Scotland we’re not abolishing them like the case in England.
AN: No you just cut them.
NS: But also in terms of student debt we’ve got the lowest average student debt of any of the nations of the UK. So Andrew, the point I’m making to you here is I don’t sit here and say that we are perfect and I don’t sit here and say that we don’t have challenges to face and work to do to face them. But what I will defend is the progress we’re making and also on things like student debt and student grants, that we are actually further advanced in many in these respects than any other part of the UK.
AN: Let me move onto health. You’re always railing against what you call ‘Tory austerity.’ So why did your members of the Scottish Parliament vote against increasing nurses pay?
NS: Well I’ve set out our position. We have a – as is the case across the UK a one percent pay cap across the public sector.
AN: And you voted to sustain that.
NS: Well can I just explain the position we’re in and the action we’ve taken and what I think needs to happen in the future. We have had that pay cap to try to protect jobs and make sure that we could support a policy of no compulsory redundancies in our NHS. Again, a policy that other parts of the UK don’t have.
AN: Well no nurses have been made redundant in England and Wales.
NS: There’s 12 thousand NHS staff that have been made redundant –
AN: Yeah, but no nurses.
NS: There have been redundancies across the NHS.
AN: Not nurses.
NS: I would have to double check that but I think you might be wrong on that point, but we’ve got a policy of no compulsory redundancies. We’ve also done two other things – let me finish this point ‘cause it’s important. We’ve done two other things that haven’t been done in other parts of the UK. We’ve given bigger increases to those at the lowest end of the income scale and we’ve also protected what’s called ‘progression,’ as people move through the pay scales. That hasn’t happened in other parts of the UK, so if you’re a newly qualified nurse in Scotland you’re actually paid more than you are in any other part of the United Kingdom. Now that pay cap’s been in place for reasons that I don’t enjoy having to accept –
AN: And you could have changed it.
NS: Well, what I’m saying now is if we’d changed it we would have seen pressure in other ways, in jobs for example, but we’ve sought to protect the lowest income people for that. So if you’re a nurse you’re paid more in Scotland than you are in England.
NS: Well not by that much. If you’re a Registered Staff Nurse in Scotland on a 12 hour shift you’ll end up with under £2 less on a 12 hour shift than an English nurse – it’s not huge.
NS: If you’re a newly qualified nurse it’s about £3-400 a year better off.
NS: But Registered Staff Nurse …
NS: If you’re on Agenda for Change, not a nurse, if you’re at the lowest level of Agenda for Change it’s more than that. It’s about a thousand pounds. Now you know I’m making that point to say we’ve taken action where we can, but can I finish the point about the future? I’ve been very clear that as inflation starts to increase, because this pay cap’s also been in place, it’s not been easy for anybody in the public sector, but it’s been in place at times of reasonably low inflation.
AN: And you voted to sustain it for another year.
NS: Look, there was a simplistic motion. Well actually we’re about to go into negotiations for the next financial year and I’ve been very clear and our Manifesto which we’ll publish on Tuesday will say more about this. At times of rising inflation I don’t believe pay caps of that nature will continue to be sustainable, so we’ll set out how we will ensure in the future –
AN: So you’ll change the pay cap in the future?
NS: When we publish the Manifesto on Tuesday but I think if you can listen to what I’m saying you’ll get a clear hint. That we need to have pay deals in the future that are both affordable but recognise the cost of living pressures the public sector workers are working under and we’ll continue to do what UK governments haven’t done in terms of the NHS is always accept the recommendations of the Pay Review Body.
AN: If you do well in this General Election will you use that to strengthen the case for a second independence referendum?
NS: Well this election, I mean we put in our Manifesto for the Scottish election last year the idea that Scotland should have a choice at the end of the Brexit – if there was a vote for Brexit that Scotland should have a choice. So what this election does I suppose is determine whether the people of Scotland think that whether and when Scotland should have a choice about our future should be a decision for the Scottish Parliament or for a UK Prime Minister.
AN: So it will strengthen the case if you do well?
NS: Well we’ve got that mandate already and it will underline and reinforce that mandate, but this election will not decide whether or not Scotland becomes independent.
AN: No, of course not. But you called for a second referendum because of Brexit. You said Scotland we being dragged out of the EU against its will. So can you confirm that an independent Scotland would immediately apply for full membership of the EU?
NS: I’d want an independent Scotland to be a member of the EU.
AN: But would it apply for full membership?
NS: Yes, we’d want to be a full member of the EU.
AN: You wouldn’t settle for an interim deal? Or just being in the single market?
NS: Again can I set this out. We tried to find compromise ground with the Prime Minister whereby we would accept we were coming out of the EU but see if we could keep the whole of the UK and if not that then Scotland in the single market. But let me – you’re talking here in the context of independence. So let me set out clearly, I would want Scotland to be a member of the EU. If, and it’s an if because I don’t control the Brexit process and I can’t foresee exactly how that will unfold. If Scotland had already been taken out of the EU and there was a period in which we had to get back into the EU, if it was necessary then we would want to protect our single market membership in the interim as an objective.
AN: So there could be an interim arrangement?
NS: Well, if that was necessary but the objective would be – and we’ve heard people from – you know voices within the Commission, the Deputy Chancellor of Germany, senior European Parliamentarians talk about the fact that it would not be a complicated process for Scotland to become a member of the EU if we were independent, but that’s if we’re independent. I think in this election – because I want Scotland to have a choice, not now but at the end of the Brexit process when the options are clear. This election though gives Scotland another opportunity. It gives us the opportunity to have our voice heard generally in the House of Commons but specifically in terms of the Brexit negotiations. So that we can try to make sure that there’s not a deal that is bad for Scotland.
AN: The Prime Minister says that there won’t be a second referendum on your timetable. If she wins and sticks to that what will you do?
NS: Well look, let’s give the people of Scotland the chance to have their say in this election on June 8th. My – and this has been a long and you’ve covered Scottish politics for a long time. I was going to say probably longer than I’ve been alive but that would upset you midway through an interview which would probably not be – a good idea
AN: Not really, I’d just like you to answer the question.
NS: I’m going to come onto it.
AN: What will you do if the Prime Minister does not grant you a referendum?
NS: Well look, I think if the SNP win the election on June 8th in Scotland then I’m taking nothing for granted, but if the SNP win the election having won the Scottish election last year on the strength of a Manifesto commitment that was very clear and in the interim the Scottish Parliament having it back, then I think that position of the Prime Minister is unsustainable.
AN: But if she doesn’t change what would you do?
NS: I’m not going to sit here – we’ve got an election in ten days time, I’m not going to sit here and speculate about that.
AN: There’s not much – in truth there’s not much you can do is there?
NS: Well I think in politics you know positions quickly become unsustainable and we’ve seen in the last few days and you highlighted this in your interview with her that this is not a Prime Minister who’s very good at holding position when she feels it’s under pressure. She’s a Prime Minister that has seemed to perfect the art of the u-turn.
AN: Let me come onto Brexit. You say that a vote for the SNP will strengthen your hand in the Brexit talks. You’re not in the Brexit talks.
NS: Well you know what? We should be.
AN: But you’re not –
NS: And so should Wales and so should Northern Ireland.
AN: But you’re not.
NS: Well but again we’ve got an election – you know the Prime Minister has brought about this election, that gives the people of Scotland to opportunity, and I’m saying to people in Scotland whether you voted Leave or Remain, whether you voted yes or no in 2014, this is an opportunity to strengthen Scotland’s voice in these Brexit talks and strengthen the influence we have in terms of the positions the UK government takes.
AN: But Mrs May doesn’t want you on the talks and Mr Barnier, the lead EU negotiator doesn’t want you on the talks.
NS: I think in terms of the Prime Minister’s position you know Ruth Davidson said, the Scottish Tory Leader said not that long ago that she thought Scotland and the Scottish government and me as First Minister should be involved in deciding and shaping the UK position. So if people – if the SNP wins this election it strengthens our hand.
AN: All right.
NS: Because the danger Scotland faces right now, the danger in my view that the whole UK faces, is not just Brexit but it is the extreme Brexit that is being pursued by the Tories that threaten tens of thousands of jobs in Scotland. So on this, as on so many other things, if you want Scotland’s voice to be heard, if you want Scotland’s interest to be to the fore rather than just Tory MPs who’ll rubber stamp whatever Theresa May wants, the only way to secure that is to vote SNP.
AN: You complain the powers being sent back to London from Brussels might not be passed on to Edinburgh, but under your plan any return of powers to Edinburgh you’ll then send back to Brussels. It’s a nonsensical grievance.
NS: Look these are issues that people in Scotland will scrutinise and debate if we are in another independence referendum. I believe Scotland as an independent member state of the EU with a much greater voice than we’ve had as a part of the UK over the years. But you know, Theresa May is the one who wants to pursue Brexit and wants to pursue a hard Brexit. Now if that’s what she’s doing then to use that as a process to centralise power in the UK or in areas that are under the Scotland Act devolved to the Scottish Parliament I do think would be unacceptable.
AN: But you would then send them back.
NS: Well, we would, if we were in the EU we would continue to cooperate on these things as an independent member state.
AN: But you’d have to send them back, that would be membership of the EU.
NS: But we would be representing Scottish interests as the member state. But let’s be in no doubt here, what we have is a Prime Minister that seems to want to centralise powers, not just from Scotland but from Wales and Northern Ireland as well and I think it would be unacceptable to use Brexit to do that.
AN: You would rather see Jeremy Corbyn than Theresa May as Prime Minister?
NS: Um. I don’t want a Tory Prime Minister, I don’t want to see a Tory government.
AN: So you’d rather see Mr Corbyn?
NS: Look I – I don’t particularly like looking at the state of UK politics just now and forming the conclusions I do. I don’t think Jeremy Corbyn is credible as an alternative prime minister.
AN: But it’s got to be one or the other and I think you would rather see Mr Corbyn.
NS: Well I’d actually rather see ultimately Scotland be independent in the interim.
AN: Of course, but that’s not the choice, as you said.
NS: Whoever emerges and you know I think even with the narrowing of the polls I still think it is highly likely that the Tories are going to win this election, so what matters for Scotland is that we’ve got the strongest possible voice. We know the damage Tory governments do to Scotland.
AN: But if you found that your SNP contingent in Westminster in a pivotal position, ‘cause maybe Mr Corbyn has won but perhaps not by much or only as the largest party, would the SNP work with Mr Corbyn to raise taxes to pay for more spending?
NS: Well we’ve got our own tax policies and we’ve put them forward already in terms of the taxes we control in Scotland we’ll say more about that.
AN: But UK wide would you work with Mr Corbyn to raise taxes?
NS: I don’t agree with all of Jeremy Corbyn tax policies. Look, we’re kind of getting into the realms of – and I understand why so bear with me.
AN: Well this might be the result.
NS: Look, I don’t think it will be and I don’t think –
AN: But if it is will you work with Mr Corbyn on his tax and spend?
NS: We’ll work for progressive policies and we’ll work for the policies we put forward in our Manifesto. If there was to be a hung parliament of course we would look to be part of a progressive alliance that pursued progressive policies, but let’s get back to the reality of this election. The reality of this election, even with a narrowing of the polls is that we’re going to face a Tory government perhaps with a bigger majority, so my priority in this election is to say to people in Scotland if you want Scotland’s interest to be protected and our voice heard, then you’ve got to vote SNP to make sure that’s the case. Voting Tory deliveries Tory MPs who’ll rubber stamp Theresa May and voting Labour in Scotland risks letting the Tories in.
AN: Just one final thing on Mr Corbyn. He wants to raise Corporation Tax by a third. Would you broadly agree with that?
NS: No. I don’t agree right now with the proposition that we should reduce the headline rate of Corporation Tax, but I don’t agree with that either. What I would like to see, and again my Manifesto will say more about this on Tuesday, I think we should be targeting support for businesses. Given the productivity challenge we’ve got I think we should be targeting support to encourage businesses to invest in plant and machinery and also to take on workers.
AN: I understand. We’re in our final 30 seconds, I just want to ask you this. Mr Salmond says the Labour Manifesto is actually an imitation of the SNP programme in government.
NS: In some respects it is.
AN: Are you proud of that?
NS: Well I think it shows Scotland’s leading the way in progressive policies.
AN: So Scotland is the first Corbynista government?
NS: Scotland is leading the way in progressive policies across the UK and to answer your question directly, yes I’m very proud of that.
AN: You’re proud of being a forerunner for Mr Corbyn?
NS: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as you know.
AN: It is indeed. Nicola Sturgeon, thank you for being with us tonight on this interview. Thank you.
NS: Thank you.
Transcript courtesy of the BBC
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